Another insightful conversation. Thanks so much, Rachel. I listened this morning after a conversation with American and Canadian friends the night before in Waterloo,ON, where a Pro-Palestine rally was happening. A Canadian friend raised in Zambia who has studied protests noted that everywhere beyond North America protests are meant to disrupt. She noted in Canada people stay on the sidewalk and follow the rules. In the USA, a relatively small number of people gather on the highway in LA and Trump sends the National Guard. Driverless cars get destroyed and Marines arrive.
Like you, Rachel, I consider every being a co-constituent part of the body of earth. We are connected kin and the constant siege of the body of earth requires self defense. As someone who has always considered myself a pacifist, I am usefully challenged to ask how to engage in defending the sacred body of earth (all the bodies that comprise it: arboreal, botanical, animal, mineral, aquatic) in ways that do not cause more harm. I appreciate the complexity and clarity you invite us to swim in.
Rowan is a legend. I stayed in the same protest safe-house as her a few years back, though unfortunately was far too tired to have much conversation. I have so much to say on this subject. Clearly there are limits to what nonviolence can do. In the context of a genocidal force willing to indiscriminately murder civilians I doubt it can help. But until we are directly facing that level of violence, I think nonviolence has its place.
There are certainly interesting discussions about the abuse of terminology. When the state's definition of violence includes property damage (even when there's no risk of harm to people), but not oppression and imprisonment (so long as they are the ones doing it), what does it even mean in that context? I believe this is why Palestine Action didn't define itself as such. But I think it’s worth holding to our own definitions, to retain control of the narrative.
Nonviolence is a disciplined commitment to proudly standing up against authority in a way that allows us to retain our humanity, avoids causing harm to people, and helps us keep each other safe. It avoids the passivity and obedience of peaceful protest, which has sadly become ineffective in the UK as authorities have decided to simply ignore it. It also avoids the escalation towards ever more violence that we're unlikely to win, since we don’t have the power of the state.
The real power that nonviolence gives us is the opportunity for mass mobilisation. Once things have escalated too far towards violence, many people will simply submit to authority out of fear, and only a few will risk their lives. But by avoiding that escalation, we can maintain a relatively safe movement space that still massively disrupts the establishment system using a wide variety of tactics that millions of people can join in with. Not everyone has to engage in direct action, there are many support roles needed, but there is also noncompliance, strikes, boycotts, etc.
Apart from disrupting the current power, there's also a second side of what might be called nonviolent resistance, which is building the alternative e.g. through mutual aid, and alternative economies which reduce financial power over us, training and educating, and creating processes to make & hold clear demands or visions for the future that people can support, without the movement being appropriated.
And while the establishment massively clamps down on us, unlike peaceful protest which submits, a nonviolence movement can use that to our advantage. When Trudi Warner was arrested for holding a placard upholding jury equity, the Defend Our Juries movement was born. When more were arrested for holding the same sign, hundreds more sat down to replicate the action until it became clear that they couldn't arrest us all. When hard-core activists like Palestine Action are proscribed, the comparatively easier action of being arrested for a terrorism offence for holding a sign becomes possible, and in its absurdity and obvious injustice, the authority turns more people against it.
If on the other hand Palestine Action had responded to being called terrorists, by saying “we might as well commit acts of terrorism then”, they would have immediately lost all support, and the public would have rallied behind more authoritarianism.
Ultimately to even survive the multiple crises we're facing, we will have to go through some form of revolution to force the rich and powerful to surrender their wealth and power. This won’t be easy, but we need to remember how much they depend on us and our compliance, and the compliance of their enforcers. In most cases, police forces and armies tend not to like firing on unarmed civilians, especially if they think their families might be in the crowd. With a violent revolution we have no idea who might be hurt or where it might end, and it has an even chance of leaving us suffering under a different tyranny as of freeing us. But if we can maintain nonviolence and achieve a mass movement revolution, working to create a new democracy as we go, I think we have a better chance of getting out the other end.
I like the way the form reflected the content. That was a masterclass in non-violence in the context of an interview. Vulnerability with edge, curiosity with respect - human values that remind us who we are as a group whatever our differences. A great interview!
Nonviolence protects the state and enables its monopoly on violence. In order to be peaceful, you must be capable of great violence. If you are not capable of violence, you are not peaceful, just harmless. Important distinction. Hope this helps! 🙏
No, this is a misunderstanding of nonviolence. What you're referring to is being peaceful, passive, or obedient. Nonviolence is something separate from both violence and passivity. It has the power to be enormously disruptive to establishment systems through direct action, - this can be anything from mass non-compliance with laws making them unenforceable, to carefully planned property damage of critical infrastructure. But the important thing is it avoids causing harm to people or an escalation further into violence, so that when the state does use violence it can more obviously be seen as unjust, and then by doing so the establishment powers turn a greater proportion of the public against themselves.
Exciting News: Groundbreaking Environmentally Friendly Power Station
I wanted to share some exciting news—our team has developed a revolutionary new environmentally friendly 1.2 gigawatt power station with a built-in Data centre and to reach the Net Zero targets . This innovative technology is so advanced that it effectively fills the gaps of traditional wind and solar farms. The new system generates clean energy more efficiently and reliably, representing a significant leap forward in sustainable power generation assisted by 30% waste-to-energy. I look forward to telling you more about its capabilities and the positive impact it will have on the future of renewable energy.
Violent protests are basically guerilla warfare against military occupation and aggression.
non-violent protests, on the other hand, are public messaging. They provide a means for politicians and everybody else to see where citizens stand and what they want.
so, once you start a war - it's hard to stop one. Let the otherside start it. That way you will be on the moral side of the conflict when it ends. The ones who started it will be held to account.
Until war has been declared by Trump, keep protests non-violent and peaceful. Otherwise, Trump will declare you are the reason marshal (military) law has to be enacted.
The comment here of the example of sabotage in Germany, and the lack of public support for such acts, is worth following up on. A society that is kept in the dark about the realities of these issues, from climate change to environmental destruction to institutionalized racism, etc., is unprepared to understand either the reasoning or possible value of protest that takes on a violent turn, or involves sabotage, or other activity that makes people uncomfortable. It is one thing to harm the ability of citizens to get to work, or to harm the economy at a time when so many people struggle to make ends meet, which clearly makes many people unwilling to side with such protest. But even when these forms of protest do not make people fear for their livelihoods, if your ignorance leads you to believe that protestors are "going too far" it is no surprise that the general public does not get behind this action.
The state wants to keep people in the dark for many reasons, and this is just one of them. This is why those who push for abandoning the soft touch concept, or the practice of framing all such information in hopeful, optimistic terms when it comes to educating the public about climate change, for example, are right, in my view. People really think that climate change is simply an energy issue, that human extinction is absolutely not at stake, that we can simply "learn to live with" climate change, and that we have lots of time to be extremely picky about just how we will make the necessary but minor changes to our way of life. So it's no wonder they can look at forms of protest that don't resemble a parade as shocking and immature.
One reason for the rise in right-wing politics around the world is precisely the ignorance many have as to just how badly those in power have screwed up life on Earth, and the resulting patience the public has lost from decades of being told by a minority of voices that how we live, what we take for granted, our heroes and cherished attitudes about many things in our lives are not only empty but dangerous and must be changed. When a sufficient percentage of the public is properly informed, assuming that is even possible, then in the face of continued resistance from those in power to listen and to change, protest may simply mirror how the public really feels and quite naturally turn increasingly desperate and violent.
Brilliant, thank you both for this. Such a necessary conversation, and it's so refreshing to have really challenging questions posed in such a respectful, honouring context. Personally I'm still keen to understand more, and would love to hear further interviews exploring the place of nonviolence in our times.
Wonderful tensions explored and thank you Rachel and Rowan 🙏
Relevant for me after walking with my 2 young kids on the March for Humanity across the Sydney Harbour bridge yesterday with 100,000 plus people. It was a civilly obedient protest, though had the courts ruled for it to not go ahead we would've seen less numbers but also civil disobedience and clash with authorities. For Gaza, Sudan, for life and Gaia. And this left me reflecting again on this question that has stuck with me for the past several years...what are the new forms of playful and persistent non-violent civil disobedience that we need right now?
If we see ourselves as Earthians, of the body of Earth, we must learn to also see violence as an immune response. To defend against parts of our selves that have become toxic to the whole. If the state defines violence in it's legal fictions as damage to private property of corporations or the state. Then violence, yes. I say it is composting.
Intentional physical harm of people as a form of protest in rare circumstances is morally justifiable. In a warzone? Then it is part of your defence.
So what forms of playful and persistent non-violent civil disobedience will accelerate the composting of the structures and institutions that are antithetical to the flourishing of life on this planet?
It's all the things being done. Culture jamming. Flash mobs. Boycotts. Resistance movements. Regular protests. Algorithm hacking. Direct action. Grieving circles and rituals for co-regulating our nervous systems. Breaking and composting infrastructure and institutions. Decolonising our minds and bodies. Composting patriarchal systems. Creating new systems of collectivism and commoning as alternatives. Trojan mousing new memetics in the orgs that represent the cultural sclerosis of human societies. It's all of it, all at once, everywhere at the same time. And it's not enough and enough at the same time.
In Germany, there are already groups that sabotage infrastructure in the name of "environmental protection." However, their actions have had the opposite effect of what they intended. The general population feels no sympathy for them and often reacts with anger to their tactics. The results of the recent elections confirmed this trend: the Green Party lost support (not solely for this reason, but it played a role) while parties aligned with the industrial complex and those with fascist tendencies gained ground. I fear this could escalate into violence against individuals. However, we can put aside the moral and ethical concerns and examine the effectiveness of violence versus nonviolence from a pragmatic standpoint. But even from this perspective, there is little evidence to suggest that such actions will lead to environmentally friendly policies; in fact, everything indicates that the opposite is more likely.
I believe it is critical that we use confrontational non violence. Read the Dandelion Insurrection Trilogy to see how we can imagine this in our current reality.
AND, we must look at a much longer time line. Talking about the International Charter for Human Rights is to ignore what was before that and how much so many Dictators want to return to a pre-WWII internationalism. It also ignores how many brown and black communities have never been a part of that "civilized" world-view.
It is time to imagine a pre and post modern strategy that uses non western ideas (right brain?) To disrupt the western system.
Another insightful conversation. Thanks so much, Rachel. I listened this morning after a conversation with American and Canadian friends the night before in Waterloo,ON, where a Pro-Palestine rally was happening. A Canadian friend raised in Zambia who has studied protests noted that everywhere beyond North America protests are meant to disrupt. She noted in Canada people stay on the sidewalk and follow the rules. In the USA, a relatively small number of people gather on the highway in LA and Trump sends the National Guard. Driverless cars get destroyed and Marines arrive.
Like you, Rachel, I consider every being a co-constituent part of the body of earth. We are connected kin and the constant siege of the body of earth requires self defense. As someone who has always considered myself a pacifist, I am usefully challenged to ask how to engage in defending the sacred body of earth (all the bodies that comprise it: arboreal, botanical, animal, mineral, aquatic) in ways that do not cause more harm. I appreciate the complexity and clarity you invite us to swim in.
Rowan is a legend. I stayed in the same protest safe-house as her a few years back, though unfortunately was far too tired to have much conversation. I have so much to say on this subject. Clearly there are limits to what nonviolence can do. In the context of a genocidal force willing to indiscriminately murder civilians I doubt it can help. But until we are directly facing that level of violence, I think nonviolence has its place.
There are certainly interesting discussions about the abuse of terminology. When the state's definition of violence includes property damage (even when there's no risk of harm to people), but not oppression and imprisonment (so long as they are the ones doing it), what does it even mean in that context? I believe this is why Palestine Action didn't define itself as such. But I think it’s worth holding to our own definitions, to retain control of the narrative.
Nonviolence is a disciplined commitment to proudly standing up against authority in a way that allows us to retain our humanity, avoids causing harm to people, and helps us keep each other safe. It avoids the passivity and obedience of peaceful protest, which has sadly become ineffective in the UK as authorities have decided to simply ignore it. It also avoids the escalation towards ever more violence that we're unlikely to win, since we don’t have the power of the state.
The real power that nonviolence gives us is the opportunity for mass mobilisation. Once things have escalated too far towards violence, many people will simply submit to authority out of fear, and only a few will risk their lives. But by avoiding that escalation, we can maintain a relatively safe movement space that still massively disrupts the establishment system using a wide variety of tactics that millions of people can join in with. Not everyone has to engage in direct action, there are many support roles needed, but there is also noncompliance, strikes, boycotts, etc.
Apart from disrupting the current power, there's also a second side of what might be called nonviolent resistance, which is building the alternative e.g. through mutual aid, and alternative economies which reduce financial power over us, training and educating, and creating processes to make & hold clear demands or visions for the future that people can support, without the movement being appropriated.
And while the establishment massively clamps down on us, unlike peaceful protest which submits, a nonviolence movement can use that to our advantage. When Trudi Warner was arrested for holding a placard upholding jury equity, the Defend Our Juries movement was born. When more were arrested for holding the same sign, hundreds more sat down to replicate the action until it became clear that they couldn't arrest us all. When hard-core activists like Palestine Action are proscribed, the comparatively easier action of being arrested for a terrorism offence for holding a sign becomes possible, and in its absurdity and obvious injustice, the authority turns more people against it.
If on the other hand Palestine Action had responded to being called terrorists, by saying “we might as well commit acts of terrorism then”, they would have immediately lost all support, and the public would have rallied behind more authoritarianism.
Ultimately to even survive the multiple crises we're facing, we will have to go through some form of revolution to force the rich and powerful to surrender their wealth and power. This won’t be easy, but we need to remember how much they depend on us and our compliance, and the compliance of their enforcers. In most cases, police forces and armies tend not to like firing on unarmed civilians, especially if they think their families might be in the crowd. With a violent revolution we have no idea who might be hurt or where it might end, and it has an even chance of leaving us suffering under a different tyranny as of freeing us. But if we can maintain nonviolence and achieve a mass movement revolution, working to create a new democracy as we go, I think we have a better chance of getting out the other end.
I like the way the form reflected the content. That was a masterclass in non-violence in the context of an interview. Vulnerability with edge, curiosity with respect - human values that remind us who we are as a group whatever our differences. A great interview!
Nonviolence protects the state and enables its monopoly on violence. In order to be peaceful, you must be capable of great violence. If you are not capable of violence, you are not peaceful, just harmless. Important distinction. Hope this helps! 🙏
No, this is a misunderstanding of nonviolence. What you're referring to is being peaceful, passive, or obedient. Nonviolence is something separate from both violence and passivity. It has the power to be enormously disruptive to establishment systems through direct action, - this can be anything from mass non-compliance with laws making them unenforceable, to carefully planned property damage of critical infrastructure. But the important thing is it avoids causing harm to people or an escalation further into violence, so that when the state does use violence it can more obviously be seen as unjust, and then by doing so the establishment powers turn a greater proportion of the public against themselves.
♾️🌏♾️
Exciting News: Groundbreaking Environmentally Friendly Power Station
I wanted to share some exciting news—our team has developed a revolutionary new environmentally friendly 1.2 gigawatt power station with a built-in Data centre and to reach the Net Zero targets . This innovative technology is so advanced that it effectively fills the gaps of traditional wind and solar farms. The new system generates clean energy more efficiently and reliably, representing a significant leap forward in sustainable power generation assisted by 30% waste-to-energy. I look forward to telling you more about its capabilities and the positive impact it will have on the future of renewable energy.
David Angell Paulo
AUSTS Power Plants PTY LTD.
davidangellpaulo@austsecology.com
Violent protests are basically guerilla warfare against military occupation and aggression.
non-violent protests, on the other hand, are public messaging. They provide a means for politicians and everybody else to see where citizens stand and what they want.
so, once you start a war - it's hard to stop one. Let the otherside start it. That way you will be on the moral side of the conflict when it ends. The ones who started it will be held to account.
Until war has been declared by Trump, keep protests non-violent and peaceful. Otherwise, Trump will declare you are the reason marshal (military) law has to be enacted.
The cracks are emerging in the network
hey guys, keep up the pressure against the crazy men spiraling in the horror regime
🍁 We can do this, Elbows UP!
the next nation wide protest is being organized by 50501:
Saturday August 2nd 2025
RAGE against the REGIME
https://www.rageagainsttheregime.org/
THATS IN THREE DAYS!
We are the freight train.
🚂🇨🇦🇬🇧🇫🇷🇯🇵🇦🇺🇩🇪🇺🇦🇸🇳🇳🇱🇰🇷🇵🇱🏴🇻🇦
Nationwide 'Rage Against the Regime' Protest Planned for August 2
https://www.newsweek.com/rage-against-regime-protest-jeffrey-epstein-trump-2104497
🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁
2CELLOS - Hysteria [OFFICIAL VIDEO]
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbwAd5gkMM
🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁🍁
Keep protests peaceful.
Don't kill anyone.
Here are resistance related guides from around the world:
🇺🇸 Fundamentals of physical surveillance: a guide for uniformed and plainclothes personnel
https://archive.org/details/fundamentalsofph0000silj
The RCMP has its own publications including:
🇨🇦 GCPSG-022 (2025) - Threat and Risk Assessment Guide
GCPSG-010 (2022) - Operational Physical Security Guide
🇨🇦 GCPSG-019 (2023) - Protection, Detection, Response, and Recovery Guide
https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/physec-secmat/pubs/index-eng.htm
The non-profit Electronic Frontier Foundation also has excellent guides on:
🇺🇸 Street Level Surveillance
https://sls.eff.org
🇺🇸 Surveillance Self-Defense
https://ssd.eff.org/
🇪🇺 🇸🇪⚠️ Resistance Operating Concept
https://jsou.edu/Press/PublicationDashboard/25
🇺🇦 🇺🇲 Radio Free Ukraine Resistance Manual
https://radiofreeukraine.com/3d-flip-book/resistance-manual/
⚠️ John Hopkins University:
Assessing Revolutionary And Insurgent Strategies (ARIS) Studies
This one is used a lot by ICE, so the Trump Regime keeps suppressing it. Here are alternate links as it keeps getting moved around by the good guys:
Small Wars Journal
Assessing Revolutionary and Insurgent Strategies (ARIS) Project
https://archive.smallwarsjournal.com/blog/assessing-revolutionary-and-insurgent-strategies-aris-project
Author's website:
On Resistance, Revolutions, and Insurgencies
https://zimmerer.typepad.com/resistance/
Free PDF download of the book from the original author:
Casebook on Insurgency and Revolutionary Warfare, Volume II 1962 - 2009
http://zimmerer.typepad.com/Documents/ARIS%20Casebook%20Vol%202%202012%20s.pdf
⚠️ Civilian-Based Defense: A Post-Military Weapons System
https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/resource/civilian-based-defense-a-post-military-weapons-system/
🏁 Simple Sabotage Field Manual by United States Office of Strategic Services
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26184?ref=404media.co
⚠️ Library of Congress
Revelations from the Russian archives: documents in English translation
https://www.loc.gov/item/96024752
🏁 Robert Reich/Resistance School
Communicating Across Difference
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaT8gjnOmQl3dguy0_E0vVCL5ZYEyCTzu
🏁 Bernie Sanders:
https://m.youtube.com/@BernieSanders
🏁 CPJ Committee to Protect Journalists:
Safety Kit
https://cpj.org/safety-kit/
🏁 Activist Handbook:
https://activisthandbook.org/introduction
(⚠️ These are USA sponsered websites. Some publications may have been removed by the Trump regime)
Thank you for posting all these resources!
Yeah, non-violent. Conciliatory, logical, win/win. Do it in style.
The comment here of the example of sabotage in Germany, and the lack of public support for such acts, is worth following up on. A society that is kept in the dark about the realities of these issues, from climate change to environmental destruction to institutionalized racism, etc., is unprepared to understand either the reasoning or possible value of protest that takes on a violent turn, or involves sabotage, or other activity that makes people uncomfortable. It is one thing to harm the ability of citizens to get to work, or to harm the economy at a time when so many people struggle to make ends meet, which clearly makes many people unwilling to side with such protest. But even when these forms of protest do not make people fear for their livelihoods, if your ignorance leads you to believe that protestors are "going too far" it is no surprise that the general public does not get behind this action.
The state wants to keep people in the dark for many reasons, and this is just one of them. This is why those who push for abandoning the soft touch concept, or the practice of framing all such information in hopeful, optimistic terms when it comes to educating the public about climate change, for example, are right, in my view. People really think that climate change is simply an energy issue, that human extinction is absolutely not at stake, that we can simply "learn to live with" climate change, and that we have lots of time to be extremely picky about just how we will make the necessary but minor changes to our way of life. So it's no wonder they can look at forms of protest that don't resemble a parade as shocking and immature.
One reason for the rise in right-wing politics around the world is precisely the ignorance many have as to just how badly those in power have screwed up life on Earth, and the resulting patience the public has lost from decades of being told by a minority of voices that how we live, what we take for granted, our heroes and cherished attitudes about many things in our lives are not only empty but dangerous and must be changed. When a sufficient percentage of the public is properly informed, assuming that is even possible, then in the face of continued resistance from those in power to listen and to change, protest may simply mirror how the public really feels and quite naturally turn increasingly desperate and violent.
Brilliant, thank you both for this. Such a necessary conversation, and it's so refreshing to have really challenging questions posed in such a respectful, honouring context. Personally I'm still keen to understand more, and would love to hear further interviews exploring the place of nonviolence in our times.
Wonderful tensions explored and thank you Rachel and Rowan 🙏
Relevant for me after walking with my 2 young kids on the March for Humanity across the Sydney Harbour bridge yesterday with 100,000 plus people. It was a civilly obedient protest, though had the courts ruled for it to not go ahead we would've seen less numbers but also civil disobedience and clash with authorities. For Gaza, Sudan, for life and Gaia. And this left me reflecting again on this question that has stuck with me for the past several years...what are the new forms of playful and persistent non-violent civil disobedience that we need right now?
If we see ourselves as Earthians, of the body of Earth, we must learn to also see violence as an immune response. To defend against parts of our selves that have become toxic to the whole. If the state defines violence in it's legal fictions as damage to private property of corporations or the state. Then violence, yes. I say it is composting.
Intentional physical harm of people as a form of protest in rare circumstances is morally justifiable. In a warzone? Then it is part of your defence.
So what forms of playful and persistent non-violent civil disobedience will accelerate the composting of the structures and institutions that are antithetical to the flourishing of life on this planet?
It's all the things being done. Culture jamming. Flash mobs. Boycotts. Resistance movements. Regular protests. Algorithm hacking. Direct action. Grieving circles and rituals for co-regulating our nervous systems. Breaking and composting infrastructure and institutions. Decolonising our minds and bodies. Composting patriarchal systems. Creating new systems of collectivism and commoning as alternatives. Trojan mousing new memetics in the orgs that represent the cultural sclerosis of human societies. It's all of it, all at once, everywhere at the same time. And it's not enough and enough at the same time.
This was so fascinating Rachel, thank you for having the hard conversations. I love your podcast
In Germany, there are already groups that sabotage infrastructure in the name of "environmental protection." However, their actions have had the opposite effect of what they intended. The general population feels no sympathy for them and often reacts with anger to their tactics. The results of the recent elections confirmed this trend: the Green Party lost support (not solely for this reason, but it played a role) while parties aligned with the industrial complex and those with fascist tendencies gained ground. I fear this could escalate into violence against individuals. However, we can put aside the moral and ethical concerns and examine the effectiveness of violence versus nonviolence from a pragmatic standpoint. But even from this perspective, there is little evidence to suggest that such actions will lead to environmentally friendly policies; in fact, everything indicates that the opposite is more likely.
I believe it is critical that we use confrontational non violence. Read the Dandelion Insurrection Trilogy to see how we can imagine this in our current reality.
AND, we must look at a much longer time line. Talking about the International Charter for Human Rights is to ignore what was before that and how much so many Dictators want to return to a pre-WWII internationalism. It also ignores how many brown and black communities have never been a part of that "civilized" world-view.
It is time to imagine a pre and post modern strategy that uses non western ideas (right brain?) To disrupt the western system.