I have believed for some time that the focus on the fossil fuel element of our metacrisis was a deliberate simplification in order to focus support for change. I should have guessed that such an approach was anything but well-meaning (if misguided) and had more colonial origins. I long for a world in which thinking the best of people is an asset rather than a flaw. Not in my lifetime I fear.
I have to say that Sailesh's perspective makes perfect sense and his pragmatic approach roots this path in a reality that with some cultural shifting might be more achievable than any amount of railing against oil producers. I am increasingly of the view that those benefitting from the current economic model will be clinging on to the wreckage of their wealth creating machine until it sinks beneath the waves. The only way forward is to make that machine redundant.
Share, instead of hoarding; value what you have; dream of better - and put your back into it!
What a mind blowing episode! The reason why these compelling arguments in favor of veganism are so rarely given any serious thought is pretty straightforward: convincing westerners to give up meat is a lot harder than convincing them to by an electric SUV or installing rooftop solar.
I live in the American Midwest. When I tell people here that I'm vegan (which I only do if it is absolutely necessary) it scrambles their brains (which is why I try to avoid talking about it). For so many folks in this region, veganism is seen as a fringe ideology, if not a deranged cult led by violent extremists. Even my progressive, eco-conscious friends regularly eat meat and dairy and don't seem particularly interested in seriously examining that part of their lifestyle.
The fact is, most people in western societies who would be willing to change their lifestyles to heal the planet would prefer to do just about anything else before changing their diets. If these folks can't be convinced, it's difficult to see how the other 50% (80%?) of us will be. It's pretty tragic when the answer seems to be so clear.
I think, like many people, I'm sceptical of claims that if we only took this one action, we could move the dial on many of the planetary boundaries we are currently breaching. Somehow, however, Sailesh had me convinced by the end of this. The argument that everyone has the power to change their diet at least to some extent, whereas none of us have the power to opt out of fossil fuels is a compelling one. And I agree that unless we give ecosystems a chance to repair, just reducing fossil fuels won't cut it. I liked his mischievous humour too.
Amazing! What a wonderful experience listening to Sailesh share his understanding. Eating my vegan, 70% organic dinner felt even more enjoyable than usual. So many threads woven together creating the ultimate work of art. Thank you.
Rachel, you keep managing to bring out interesting people I have never heard of! I have spent the day going through this episode and doing follow-up. Rao's thesis put me off at first because whenever someone comes out with numbers on something that has already been examined that are wildly different from other sources, one needs to be cautious. I've managed to go through his paper, plus a few others vital to it, including a couple of items from Goodland & Anhang he cites, and their rebuttal to Herrero et al, and it is still very interesting. I am quite annoyed not to find academic discussion of Rao's paper, which leads me to believe he may be on firm ground. I've asked my science co-author for his opinion, because Rao's work would force a lot of adjustment if it turns out to be solid. (I'm hoping it is nonetheless!)
Oddly enough, just last night, before having been aware of this episode, I underlined for myself the idea that one of the biggest requirements/impediments we have towards proper action here is the simple failure of imagination. It is really just a kind of laziness. It came to me as a reflection on the well-known idea that people can sooner imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. This mental block is applicable here as well, with views about ending the consumption of animal products. One of the easiest hard things to do. Like you, I have effectively done it and it was just a decision made once almost overnight. It's hard only if you make it hard.
This reminds me of Dougald Hine's chat with Rob Lewis, 'when trees no longer milk the sky', which discusses the lost half climate crisis - land change. Sailesh's fundamental position makes complete sense and the figures are staggering. As he says the corporation is the corporation and asking for a partial cessation of its profit psychopathy is as good as asking for none. Industrial supply chains, regardless of the product are destroying our watersheds and communities. The difficult work of rebuilding communities outside of these supply chains that can truly express the values of peace Sailesh wishes is far more difficult than modelling numbers for the latest Cop.
This is a great episode Rachel... thank you! I'm going to throw in a rather "unpopular" view here. I'm more the messenger to be honest.
I have been vegan-ish for about 10 years. I have recently been diagnosed with ADHD and Austism, and after reading Dr Georgia Ede's book called 'Change Your Diet, Change Your Mind' I have radically rethought my diet. I have noticed a vast improvement immediately of my ADHD/Austism without medication since changing my diet (to a ketogenic diet). There is a growing body of research that is pointing to veganism (and to some extent vegetarianism) causing some deficiencies in nutrients, particularly those that are crucial for making neurotransmitters and brain chemistry. The question I have is can humans get absolutely all our nutrients (including important omega 3 fatty acids to take one example) from plant food alone (without taking supplements like fish oil tablets etc)?? Bearing in mind that just because food such as flax seed contain omega 3 fatty acids it doesn't mean they are in the form we can utilise as humans. Humans need omega 3 fatty acids in the form of DHA and EPA and only utilise the ALA form in flax seeds (for example) at 10% efficiency. Ie you'd need to eat a lot of flax seed and that is not particularly healthy (given flax seeds contain cyanide - yes, plant foods aren't all just friendly foods there for the taking! They need to defend themselves too chemically and these chemical defenses are often not great for us. Dr Georgia Ede has brought together a lot of critical science about this research area and admits herself it is early days, but there is a trend forming about increasing levels of epilepsy, depression, ADHD, Autism, Bipolar etc. I would urge people to read her book. Don't get me wrong, you can eat vegan/vegetarian and get your nutrients (according to Dr Georgia Ede), but you have to really know a lot about nutrition and you have to supplement, and is relying on the pharmaceutical industry to maintain good brain function something we all want to rely on going forward?? Another example is iron, yes there is iron in plant foods but it is in the non-heme variety and again, humans cannot utilise non-heme iron very well compared to the heme variety in animal foods. I think Dr Georgia Ede would make a very good guest on your show. If we are to go completely plant based in our diets, we need to consider the whole picture. Another aspect of the dietary recommendations of organisations such as the WHO and so on is that their recommendations are largely based on easy cheap to fund epidemiological studies which are vastly more unreliable than expensive and difficult randomised double blind clinical trials. I think we need to think much more about this. Everyone is different and I think for some, solely planet based diets are perhaps not ideal, however for others it may be fine. Happy to hear different views and evidence on all this, it's s very interesting area of research (nutritional psychiatry).
Hello, I recently found your show and have been profoundly grateful for the quality of the interviews and guests and the clear explanations of some complicated topics. I had to listen to the energy collapse episode 3 times to fully get it. I also appreciate the heart centered approach you bring. This episode left me with 2 questions which probably there wasn't enough time to cover but important non the less. How would indigenous cultures be be affected as well as those who are in deep poverty and have to fish or hunt to survive? And what would be the most effective way to implement a transition away from killing animals for food on a global, national or even local level? I'm sure Mr Rao has thought about it and I was very curious to hear his take. Cheers
If people don’t have any choice other than to eat animals. Then they can’t be expected to do otherwise. It’s much the same position that faces many people when we consider the use of fossil fuels; if they have no other choice, then we can’t expect them to do otherwise. In the ‘west’ pretty much everyone has a choice over their diet, and could choose to go without meat & dairy.
Hi Rachel, what a lovely man. I know a bit about the benefits of eating plants for human health https://jowaller.substack.com/p/whats-the-best-diet and though I know about its importance for the environmental crisis, this guy has blown my mind.
Just like Doctors don't prescribe plant based diets, though the evidence is there, due to feeling guilty themselves or not wanting 'to give up' animal products (if only they knew how good it feels) presenters also shy away from highlighting the importance of veganism; though their personal lifestyle is irrelevant to the facts.
You briefly touched on medicines; this is another very important reason why the uni cartel opposes committees talking about veganism. Animal ag is Big Pharma's biggest client by miles. So this huge industry also goes bankrupt when people take back the power and go vegan. Coupled with the lucrative market of keeping humans fat, sick and drugs by eating sick (or healthy) animal's fat and protein. Even more degrowth in Big Pharma when we start eating vegan.
The official line (IPCC etc) on addressing the climate crisis has been to focus on cutting down fossil production with a decidedly negative attitude toward less techy approaches. While this undoubtedly has some crowd-soothing (and politician-satisfying) affects, it is also, as usual, the techno-national means (contra Einstein) for profit-making mitigation (or deferral) via tech fixes, as if those will correct the tech-fixes that got us into the tech mess we're in.
Sailesh Rao's insistence on a species-aware, synergistic systems or holistic (some would say common sense) focus on exactly those other approaches, in combination with tech reductions, has made his position controversial (to say the least), despite the increasing admission that fossil fuel reduction is not happening and not likely to happen in a capital-driven, energy-insatiable global economy; that official calculations do not consider (or do not adequately account for) such obvious contributions to carbon loads as extractive ocean-trawling and CO(2) release from melting arctic and antarctic systems; and technocratic institutions refuse to engage with the full range of global cumulative impacts animal agriculture has on biological, chemical and meteorological planetary boundary transgressions.
Of course we need to move forward with carbon reduction as quickly and as broadly as feasible; but let's not neglect the equally, and just possibly more important, need to address the problem in all it's manifestations, including the need to regenerate the natural systems we have devastated by (yes, colonial) animal agriculture.
Another way to immediately reduce greenhouse gasses is significantly better rail. Please pull up book promo video The Climate Emergency: Trains-An Effective Response on YouTube. Please reach out to me so I can network you with the author. Robinson Foster fosterr@ comcast.net 503- 781-9339
I have believed for some time that the focus on the fossil fuel element of our metacrisis was a deliberate simplification in order to focus support for change. I should have guessed that such an approach was anything but well-meaning (if misguided) and had more colonial origins. I long for a world in which thinking the best of people is an asset rather than a flaw. Not in my lifetime I fear.
I have to say that Sailesh's perspective makes perfect sense and his pragmatic approach roots this path in a reality that with some cultural shifting might be more achievable than any amount of railing against oil producers. I am increasingly of the view that those benefitting from the current economic model will be clinging on to the wreckage of their wealth creating machine until it sinks beneath the waves. The only way forward is to make that machine redundant.
Share, instead of hoarding; value what you have; dream of better - and put your back into it!
What a mind blowing episode! The reason why these compelling arguments in favor of veganism are so rarely given any serious thought is pretty straightforward: convincing westerners to give up meat is a lot harder than convincing them to by an electric SUV or installing rooftop solar.
I live in the American Midwest. When I tell people here that I'm vegan (which I only do if it is absolutely necessary) it scrambles their brains (which is why I try to avoid talking about it). For so many folks in this region, veganism is seen as a fringe ideology, if not a deranged cult led by violent extremists. Even my progressive, eco-conscious friends regularly eat meat and dairy and don't seem particularly interested in seriously examining that part of their lifestyle.
The fact is, most people in western societies who would be willing to change their lifestyles to heal the planet would prefer to do just about anything else before changing their diets. If these folks can't be convinced, it's difficult to see how the other 50% (80%?) of us will be. It's pretty tragic when the answer seems to be so clear.
More episodes on this theme, please! :)
I think, like many people, I'm sceptical of claims that if we only took this one action, we could move the dial on many of the planetary boundaries we are currently breaching. Somehow, however, Sailesh had me convinced by the end of this. The argument that everyone has the power to change their diet at least to some extent, whereas none of us have the power to opt out of fossil fuels is a compelling one. And I agree that unless we give ecosystems a chance to repair, just reducing fossil fuels won't cut it. I liked his mischievous humour too.
Amazing! What a wonderful experience listening to Sailesh share his understanding. Eating my vegan, 70% organic dinner felt even more enjoyable than usual. So many threads woven together creating the ultimate work of art. Thank you.
Rachel, you keep managing to bring out interesting people I have never heard of! I have spent the day going through this episode and doing follow-up. Rao's thesis put me off at first because whenever someone comes out with numbers on something that has already been examined that are wildly different from other sources, one needs to be cautious. I've managed to go through his paper, plus a few others vital to it, including a couple of items from Goodland & Anhang he cites, and their rebuttal to Herrero et al, and it is still very interesting. I am quite annoyed not to find academic discussion of Rao's paper, which leads me to believe he may be on firm ground. I've asked my science co-author for his opinion, because Rao's work would force a lot of adjustment if it turns out to be solid. (I'm hoping it is nonetheless!)
Oddly enough, just last night, before having been aware of this episode, I underlined for myself the idea that one of the biggest requirements/impediments we have towards proper action here is the simple failure of imagination. It is really just a kind of laziness. It came to me as a reflection on the well-known idea that people can sooner imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. This mental block is applicable here as well, with views about ending the consumption of animal products. One of the easiest hard things to do. Like you, I have effectively done it and it was just a decision made once almost overnight. It's hard only if you make it hard.
This reminds me of Dougald Hine's chat with Rob Lewis, 'when trees no longer milk the sky', which discusses the lost half climate crisis - land change. Sailesh's fundamental position makes complete sense and the figures are staggering. As he says the corporation is the corporation and asking for a partial cessation of its profit psychopathy is as good as asking for none. Industrial supply chains, regardless of the product are destroying our watersheds and communities. The difficult work of rebuilding communities outside of these supply chains that can truly express the values of peace Sailesh wishes is far more difficult than modelling numbers for the latest Cop.
Yes animal ag and land (use) change (AKA ecosystem destruction) go hand in hand.
This is a great episode Rachel... thank you! I'm going to throw in a rather "unpopular" view here. I'm more the messenger to be honest.
I have been vegan-ish for about 10 years. I have recently been diagnosed with ADHD and Austism, and after reading Dr Georgia Ede's book called 'Change Your Diet, Change Your Mind' I have radically rethought my diet. I have noticed a vast improvement immediately of my ADHD/Austism without medication since changing my diet (to a ketogenic diet). There is a growing body of research that is pointing to veganism (and to some extent vegetarianism) causing some deficiencies in nutrients, particularly those that are crucial for making neurotransmitters and brain chemistry. The question I have is can humans get absolutely all our nutrients (including important omega 3 fatty acids to take one example) from plant food alone (without taking supplements like fish oil tablets etc)?? Bearing in mind that just because food such as flax seed contain omega 3 fatty acids it doesn't mean they are in the form we can utilise as humans. Humans need omega 3 fatty acids in the form of DHA and EPA and only utilise the ALA form in flax seeds (for example) at 10% efficiency. Ie you'd need to eat a lot of flax seed and that is not particularly healthy (given flax seeds contain cyanide - yes, plant foods aren't all just friendly foods there for the taking! They need to defend themselves too chemically and these chemical defenses are often not great for us. Dr Georgia Ede has brought together a lot of critical science about this research area and admits herself it is early days, but there is a trend forming about increasing levels of epilepsy, depression, ADHD, Autism, Bipolar etc. I would urge people to read her book. Don't get me wrong, you can eat vegan/vegetarian and get your nutrients (according to Dr Georgia Ede), but you have to really know a lot about nutrition and you have to supplement, and is relying on the pharmaceutical industry to maintain good brain function something we all want to rely on going forward?? Another example is iron, yes there is iron in plant foods but it is in the non-heme variety and again, humans cannot utilise non-heme iron very well compared to the heme variety in animal foods. I think Dr Georgia Ede would make a very good guest on your show. If we are to go completely plant based in our diets, we need to consider the whole picture. Another aspect of the dietary recommendations of organisations such as the WHO and so on is that their recommendations are largely based on easy cheap to fund epidemiological studies which are vastly more unreliable than expensive and difficult randomised double blind clinical trials. I think we need to think much more about this. Everyone is different and I think for some, solely planet based diets are perhaps not ideal, however for others it may be fine. Happy to hear different views and evidence on all this, it's s very interesting area of research (nutritional psychiatry).
If in doubt, take a supplement. Farmers give their animals dietary supplements you know?
Hello, I recently found your show and have been profoundly grateful for the quality of the interviews and guests and the clear explanations of some complicated topics. I had to listen to the energy collapse episode 3 times to fully get it. I also appreciate the heart centered approach you bring. This episode left me with 2 questions which probably there wasn't enough time to cover but important non the less. How would indigenous cultures be be affected as well as those who are in deep poverty and have to fish or hunt to survive? And what would be the most effective way to implement a transition away from killing animals for food on a global, national or even local level? I'm sure Mr Rao has thought about it and I was very curious to hear his take. Cheers
If people don’t have any choice other than to eat animals. Then they can’t be expected to do otherwise. It’s much the same position that faces many people when we consider the use of fossil fuels; if they have no other choice, then we can’t expect them to do otherwise. In the ‘west’ pretty much everyone has a choice over their diet, and could choose to go without meat & dairy.
Both very good questions. I’d be interested to hear his thoughts.
Hi Rachel, what a lovely man. I know a bit about the benefits of eating plants for human health https://jowaller.substack.com/p/whats-the-best-diet and though I know about its importance for the environmental crisis, this guy has blown my mind.
Just like Doctors don't prescribe plant based diets, though the evidence is there, due to feeling guilty themselves or not wanting 'to give up' animal products (if only they knew how good it feels) presenters also shy away from highlighting the importance of veganism; though their personal lifestyle is irrelevant to the facts.
You briefly touched on medicines; this is another very important reason why the uni cartel opposes committees talking about veganism. Animal ag is Big Pharma's biggest client by miles. So this huge industry also goes bankrupt when people take back the power and go vegan. Coupled with the lucrative market of keeping humans fat, sick and drugs by eating sick (or healthy) animal's fat and protein. Even more degrowth in Big Pharma when we start eating vegan.
Jo
The official line (IPCC etc) on addressing the climate crisis has been to focus on cutting down fossil production with a decidedly negative attitude toward less techy approaches. While this undoubtedly has some crowd-soothing (and politician-satisfying) affects, it is also, as usual, the techno-national means (contra Einstein) for profit-making mitigation (or deferral) via tech fixes, as if those will correct the tech-fixes that got us into the tech mess we're in.
Sailesh Rao's insistence on a species-aware, synergistic systems or holistic (some would say common sense) focus on exactly those other approaches, in combination with tech reductions, has made his position controversial (to say the least), despite the increasing admission that fossil fuel reduction is not happening and not likely to happen in a capital-driven, energy-insatiable global economy; that official calculations do not consider (or do not adequately account for) such obvious contributions to carbon loads as extractive ocean-trawling and CO(2) release from melting arctic and antarctic systems; and technocratic institutions refuse to engage with the full range of global cumulative impacts animal agriculture has on biological, chemical and meteorological planetary boundary transgressions.
Of course we need to move forward with carbon reduction as quickly and as broadly as feasible; but let's not neglect the equally, and just possibly more important, need to address the problem in all it's manifestations, including the need to regenerate the natural systems we have devastated by (yes, colonial) animal agriculture.
Another way to immediately reduce greenhouse gasses is significantly better rail. Please pull up book promo video The Climate Emergency: Trains-An Effective Response on YouTube. Please reach out to me so I can network you with the author. Robinson Foster fosterr@ comcast.net 503- 781-9339