I’m so excited to see you cover this topic Rachel, thank you! I think a good person to have on the podcast would be Dr Michael Greger who is an expert in whole food, plant-based nutrition, rounding out the cruelty, planetary harm, human health nexus of plant-based eating.
Wonderful to see this topic covered by Rachel. It baffles me how difficult it is to articulate the climate justice movement to tackle big ag, in particular big animal exploitation. The data is clear on its damage, in addition to the role big ag plays into destroying livelihoods. We could all benefit from a different approach to it, but even the left is so resistant to talk about meat politics and improve on our politics for true food sovereignty. There's so much potential in plant-based diets, including by building on decolonial approaches to food culture, but somehow we keep reproducing the idea that quality of life is connected to lots of animals on the table.
For me, in particular, having worked with agroecology movements in the Global South, it is quite strange to see arguments for a global agroecological revolution, which would change the way we produce food radically, co-exist with demands for more meat - knowing this same level (or higher level) of meat output can't be possible in agroecological systems. There's only this much meat available for consumers today because it relies on crazy levels of exploitation, the commodity system, and ultraprocessed foods. The numbers don't add up, but this contradiction is overlooked as a minor detail, rather than a major obstacle for wholesome just food politics.
And don't forget the 60M "pet" canines held captive by their "loving" owners, who mostly abandon them for the day as they dutifully trot off to their own wage slavery, of which 10% (6M) are abandoned annually. The only fellow walkers I see here in Marietta, Ohio, are dog walkers, dutifully scooping up the poop as if it were a precious gift delivered between the hind quarters of their companions. Each adult contains about 10 gals of water and the 30 M cows about 100 gals, so no wonder water is getting scarce. Not much left for humans to be proud of on this dying planet. Have a blessed day and look after your captives or just abandon them, but, what ever you do, don't visit a factory farm and open a barn door. You stomach can't handle it and neither can your heart.
The truth is the permaculture/ecological farming/ecofeminist movements have been talking about this since the 70s. Sailesh will surely know Dr Vandana Shiva and the tree huggers women's movement, whose work actually did save forests by putting their bodies in the way. Shiva and her fellow ecofeminst collaborators were writing books about this in 80s, critiquing the green revolution, the poison cartels.
I guess it always takes men, and young white western men before these things become taken seriously. But what is missing from these mens framing is the deeply interconnected nature of this problem. It is all well and good saying if you just do this it will do that. Anyone in their right mind will find industrial supply chains abhorrent, this is without question.
The problem is that sustainable culture will entail EVERYONE taking part in the production of food (and fibre, and fuel), and CARE. It will not support the privilege of the professional managerial class - yes that's us lot, privileged White westerners - and we know inside that it is us who is unwilling to give up our comfort and privilege, we are stopping, upholding this terrible state of affairs. What worries me is how quickly us privileged souls will turn on anything to blame, to judge, in the vain hope we can continue to live this exploitative lifestyle - where we don't even know where our food comes from.
There are many reasons to criticise industrial livestock farming from both an ethical and environmental perspective. However, there is a tendency that the critique goes from criticizing INDUSTRIAL animal agriculure to just ANIMAL agriculture in general. And that is a big mistake, which this article seems to perpetuate.
Industrial farming of all sorts, also crop farming, wine growing, cashew nut or whatever, is harmful. Animal farming has been part of ALL human agriculture systems in the world and has made them more sustainable and sound (there are no ecosystems without animals), not to speak about pastoralism that manage some of the most bio-diverse landscapes there are.
More sustainable and most biodiverse? That's an EXTREMELY bold claim. I can't believe that for a minute - there's so many arguments not least how many times more land it requires to be industrialised.
Well, there have never been any vegan agriculture systems, ever. For a reason. The share and role of animals certainly have varied from minor to totally dominant as for pastoralist. Pastoralists are those using most land. Do you object to the hundreds of millions of pastoralists? Commodity agriculture is the culprit, not animals (or corn, or oil palm or lettuce). In my own farm I have 5 mothercows with offspring, grow an acre of vegetables and have a one acre orchard, the system is much more sustainable than if I only grew vegetables, or only apples, or only cows....
Full of specious arguments. It doesn't matter what caveman did or what present day hunter gatherers do or how we've used animals in the past. Only our present day situation and evolution is relevant.
Having some cows does not make for more biodiversity or sustainablilty, even on a small, non industrial scale. If all the small farms, of those rich enough to have their own or access to land, didn't have cows there'd be a lot more greening and sequestration and a lot less emissions. It's a big lie that animal ag somehow helps farming ecosystems. It's the regeneratively grown and watered plants that do that, not magical qualities of animals. https://jowaller.substack.com/p/yet-another-unsuccessful-attempt?utm_source=publication-search
And 'diversing' into having cows and apples instead of just apples or just cows is ridiculous. It doesn't improve biodiversity.
Well, these are big discussions and apparently you believe that of all those thousand of farming systems developed over millennia were useless and damaging. To state that "Only our present day situation" is relevant is simply arrogant towards human experience. For me, what actually happens and has happened is the evidence required and not the theoretical argument of those that don't farm. I have worked as a farmer, mostly with plant growing, and farm advisor in more than 50 countries and have some clues about what works and what doesn't.
Your link is mostly about carbon sequestration in soils, which is just a small part of what matters in farming and very much contested. Even so the post builds on a lot of errors, which do not hold for scrutiny. Lot of facts on the links.
I recommend speaking to a member of La Via Campesina, one the largest civil movements in the world, which has been active for decades. I think it is important to hear voices, outside of the professional managerial class, who represent small and peasant farmers to understand their perspectives on this, (they have also been putting their lives and livelihoods in the way of the meat/mining/oil /chemical/pharmacuetical cartels).
They're is data to suggest that up to 70% of food is still produced by small and peasant farmers, which is feeding the majority world. These are the people to speak to about what a sustainable food system looks like.
It's easy to addict people to fat, sugar and salt: instant gratification, dopamine hit and moreish sugar spikes. Indigenous people, without the generational adaptation of epigenetics, who go from eating raw fish out of ice holes to junk food in one generation are among the unhealthiest, and most medicalised, on the planet. Interesting that the Japanese have resisted the lure of Westernisation that comes with wealth and flourish on vegetable and tofu based diets (healthy despite, not because of oily fish,) and are among the most long-lived and healthy.
I’m so excited to see you cover this topic Rachel, thank you! I think a good person to have on the podcast would be Dr Michael Greger who is an expert in whole food, plant-based nutrition, rounding out the cruelty, planetary harm, human health nexus of plant-based eating.
Wonderful to see this topic covered by Rachel. It baffles me how difficult it is to articulate the climate justice movement to tackle big ag, in particular big animal exploitation. The data is clear on its damage, in addition to the role big ag plays into destroying livelihoods. We could all benefit from a different approach to it, but even the left is so resistant to talk about meat politics and improve on our politics for true food sovereignty. There's so much potential in plant-based diets, including by building on decolonial approaches to food culture, but somehow we keep reproducing the idea that quality of life is connected to lots of animals on the table.
For me, in particular, having worked with agroecology movements in the Global South, it is quite strange to see arguments for a global agroecological revolution, which would change the way we produce food radically, co-exist with demands for more meat - knowing this same level (or higher level) of meat output can't be possible in agroecological systems. There's only this much meat available for consumers today because it relies on crazy levels of exploitation, the commodity system, and ultraprocessed foods. The numbers don't add up, but this contradiction is overlooked as a minor detail, rather than a major obstacle for wholesome just food politics.
And don't forget the 60M "pet" canines held captive by their "loving" owners, who mostly abandon them for the day as they dutifully trot off to their own wage slavery, of which 10% (6M) are abandoned annually. The only fellow walkers I see here in Marietta, Ohio, are dog walkers, dutifully scooping up the poop as if it were a precious gift delivered between the hind quarters of their companions. Each adult contains about 10 gals of water and the 30 M cows about 100 gals, so no wonder water is getting scarce. Not much left for humans to be proud of on this dying planet. Have a blessed day and look after your captives or just abandon them, but, what ever you do, don't visit a factory farm and open a barn door. You stomach can't handle it and neither can your heart.
The truth is the permaculture/ecological farming/ecofeminist movements have been talking about this since the 70s. Sailesh will surely know Dr Vandana Shiva and the tree huggers women's movement, whose work actually did save forests by putting their bodies in the way. Shiva and her fellow ecofeminst collaborators were writing books about this in 80s, critiquing the green revolution, the poison cartels.
I guess it always takes men, and young white western men before these things become taken seriously. But what is missing from these mens framing is the deeply interconnected nature of this problem. It is all well and good saying if you just do this it will do that. Anyone in their right mind will find industrial supply chains abhorrent, this is without question.
The problem is that sustainable culture will entail EVERYONE taking part in the production of food (and fibre, and fuel), and CARE. It will not support the privilege of the professional managerial class - yes that's us lot, privileged White westerners - and we know inside that it is us who is unwilling to give up our comfort and privilege, we are stopping, upholding this terrible state of affairs. What worries me is how quickly us privileged souls will turn on anything to blame, to judge, in the vain hope we can continue to live this exploitative lifestyle - where we don't even know where our food comes from.
America also exports, along with factory farming and fast food chains, obestiy, heart disease, breast and prostate cancer and the pharma model.
There are many reasons to criticise industrial livestock farming from both an ethical and environmental perspective. However, there is a tendency that the critique goes from criticizing INDUSTRIAL animal agriculure to just ANIMAL agriculture in general. And that is a big mistake, which this article seems to perpetuate.
Industrial farming of all sorts, also crop farming, wine growing, cashew nut or whatever, is harmful. Animal farming has been part of ALL human agriculture systems in the world and has made them more sustainable and sound (there are no ecosystems without animals), not to speak about pastoralism that manage some of the most bio-diverse landscapes there are.
More sustainable and most biodiverse? That's an EXTREMELY bold claim. I can't believe that for a minute - there's so many arguments not least how many times more land it requires to be industrialised.
Well, there have never been any vegan agriculture systems, ever. For a reason. The share and role of animals certainly have varied from minor to totally dominant as for pastoralist. Pastoralists are those using most land. Do you object to the hundreds of millions of pastoralists? Commodity agriculture is the culprit, not animals (or corn, or oil palm or lettuce). In my own farm I have 5 mothercows with offspring, grow an acre of vegetables and have a one acre orchard, the system is much more sustainable than if I only grew vegetables, or only apples, or only cows....
Full of specious arguments. It doesn't matter what caveman did or what present day hunter gatherers do or how we've used animals in the past. Only our present day situation and evolution is relevant.
Having some cows does not make for more biodiversity or sustainablilty, even on a small, non industrial scale. If all the small farms, of those rich enough to have their own or access to land, didn't have cows there'd be a lot more greening and sequestration and a lot less emissions. It's a big lie that animal ag somehow helps farming ecosystems. It's the regeneratively grown and watered plants that do that, not magical qualities of animals. https://jowaller.substack.com/p/yet-another-unsuccessful-attempt?utm_source=publication-search
And 'diversing' into having cows and apples instead of just apples or just cows is ridiculous. It doesn't improve biodiversity.
Well, these are big discussions and apparently you believe that of all those thousand of farming systems developed over millennia were useless and damaging. To state that "Only our present day situation" is relevant is simply arrogant towards human experience. For me, what actually happens and has happened is the evidence required and not the theoretical argument of those that don't farm. I have worked as a farmer, mostly with plant growing, and farm advisor in more than 50 countries and have some clues about what works and what doesn't.
Your link is mostly about carbon sequestration in soils, which is just a small part of what matters in farming and very much contested. Even so the post builds on a lot of errors, which do not hold for scrutiny. Lot of facts on the links.
https://gardenearth.substack.com/p/a-nail-in-the-coffin-not-really
https://gardenearth.substack.com/p/the-methane-ruminations
How soon (if ever) will a transcript become available? I would really appreciate such availability.
Every episode comes with a transcript. The "Transcript" button is next to the "Share" button below my byline.
typo in your profile heading
I recommend speaking to a member of La Via Campesina, one the largest civil movements in the world, which has been active for decades. I think it is important to hear voices, outside of the professional managerial class, who represent small and peasant farmers to understand their perspectives on this, (they have also been putting their lives and livelihoods in the way of the meat/mining/oil /chemical/pharmacuetical cartels).
They're is data to suggest that up to 70% of food is still produced by small and peasant farmers, which is feeding the majority world. These are the people to speak to about what a sustainable food system looks like.
It's easy to addict people to fat, sugar and salt: instant gratification, dopamine hit and moreish sugar spikes. Indigenous people, without the generational adaptation of epigenetics, who go from eating raw fish out of ice holes to junk food in one generation are among the unhealthiest, and most medicalised, on the planet. Interesting that the Japanese have resisted the lure of Westernisation that comes with wealth and flourish on vegetable and tofu based diets (healthy despite, not because of oily fish,) and are among the most long-lived and healthy.